Englisches wort, 17. jh. (jaegersprache?)

Sprachen Fremdsprachen
1

huhu!

ich habe in dem kleinen „hunting song“ von Edward Pearce [A Brief Discourse, no.2] aus dem jahr 1614 textprobleme und waere froh, wenn mir geholfen werden koennte :smile:

anfangs geht es noch, und ich vermute, dass da auch manche aus der jaegersprache stammenden jagdrufe dabei sind - kennt sich da jemand aus? wuerd mich interessieren.

Hey trola trola, there boyes there
hoicka hoick, whoope whoope
Crie, there they goe (soweit nehme ich es noch hin :wink:
they are at a fault (wie ist das gemeint?)
Boy, winde the horne (ich glaube, es ist [wind], nicht [waind]?)
Sing tiue tiue tiue (was heiszt das??? ist u oder v gemeint?)
Now in full crie, with yeeble yable gibble gabble hey
The hounds doe knocke it lustily with open mouth and lusty crie. (und das nun wieder? ist sowas wie *the hounds knock the doe* gemeint?)

also, dass „Crie, there they goe“ *cry, there they go* in aktueller rechtschreibung ist und ‚Ruf(t), dort laufen sie‘ bedeutet, braucht ihr mir nicht sagen :wink:
aber gibt es Unterschiede in der Aussprache? wie wird „tiue“ ausgesprochen (zweisilbig ist es, den noten nach zu urteilen), und was bedeutet es? kennt sich jemand mit den rufen aus, (trola, hoicka…)?

das stueck findet ihr unter:
http://www.saers.com/recorder/mondrup/
etwa in der mitte der seite ist ein groeszerer kasten, unter „thomas ravenscroft“ …

lieben grusz
jonas

2

The hounds doe knocke it lustily with open mouth and lusty
crie. (und das nun wieder? ist sowas wie *the hounds knock the
doe* gemeint?)

ok, mir ist grad selbst klar geworden, dass keine hirschkuh oder so mit „doe“ gemeint ist, sondern das verb, to do. :^)

aber hoffentlich klaert sich noch mehr auf?

grusz
jonas

3

Hallo, Jonas,
scheint mir eine Menge Lautmalerei in dem Liedchen:

Hey trola trola, there boyes there

Trulla trulla (das Geschrei der Treiber?)

hoicka hoick, whoope whoope

auch hier der offensichtliche Versuch, einen Laut schriftlich wiederzugeben

Boy, winde the horne

Das Horn mit Wind(=Luft) versorgen, es blasen

Sing tiue tiue tiue

Vogelgezwitscher oder Hörnerklang??

Now in full crie, with yeeble yable gibble gabble hey

und noch mal Lautmalerei

The hounds doe knocke it lustily

Die Hunde bellen aus voller Kehle

Alles keine Expertenmeinung, ich weiß, aber auf gesundes Halbwissen gegründet :smile:
Gruß Eckard.

4

Hoicka ha, hilfe ist da
How now,

I doe note that another persone of wisdome hath provided much of aide. Yet doe I adde this, my “two pence worth.” I presume to offer my succore in a mingling of englysh and german, assur’d as I am that thou readest englysh with facilitye.

Hey trola trola, there boyes there
Hey…trola…trola (sound of horns, I would assume), there, boys, there (da, jungs, da)

hoicka hoick, whoope whoope …sounds of shouting, I would assume. Whoopee remains a shout of celebration/enthusiasm (albeit hackneyed and more often used for comic effect) as well as a euphemism for sexual congress. (Didn’t know that, did you?) Hoicka hoick has lost whatever position of prominence in the pantheon of percussative pronouncements it perchance possessed previously. I would expect questioning looks in my direction were I to shout “hoicka hoick” at a sporting event, for example. Maybe I will try it.

Crie, there they goe (soweit nehme ich es noch hin :wink:
they are at a fault (wie ist das gemeint?)

Hard to say. It is not even clear who “they” are. Possible explanations - they are guilty of doing something wrong, they are failing, they are doing something very well (if this is an earlier version of “to do something TO a fault”), they are next to or in a ditch or depression in the earth of some kind. You would have to research hunting language and geological descriptions of the time or find some way to research earlier meanings of “fault.” HOWEVER, if we assume the “they” of this sentence are the “they” of the previous sentence, then I would guess that “they” are animals and that they have gone to ground in a hole. This would be germane information in a hunt and common behaviors of foxes, badgers, hares and and enemy infantrymen. Or maybe I am completely wrong.

Boy, winde the horne (ich glaube, es ist [wind], nicht [waind]?)

boy, wind (blow) the horn

Sing tiue tiue tiue
I assume that tiue is how the horn sounds to the author…a fox-hunting horn sounds like this to me, I guess. At least those I have heard in movies.

Now in full crie, with yeeble yable gibble gabble hey nonsense words - which seemed to be common in songs of the period, at least …cf. “hey, nonney-nonney” and “tralala” in other songs of the period. Apparently how the melange of sounds the hunting dogs made sound to the author. Or maybe english dogs of that period made that sound - which people found so ennerving that they selectively bred dogs for a better sounding bark - that which we enjoy today.

The hounds doe knocke it lustily with open mouth and lusty crie
the hounds are going about the business of belling (yes, “to bell” is an english verb - from middle english “bellen”) and barking with eagerness

So, hewe thee to thine scribing -let him be damned who first cries ‘hold.’
Jim

5

How now,

merrily, my lad! :smile:
sorry, my English won’t be of sufficient perfection to answer in quite as well a way as you did aforehand.

I doe note that another persone of wisdome hath provided much
of aide. Yet doe I adde this, my “two pence worth.” I
presume to offer my succore in a mingling of englysh and
german, assur’d as I am that thou readest englysh with
facilitye.

hoicka hoick, whoope whoope …sounds of shouting, I
would assume. Whoopee remains a shout of
celebration/enthusiasm (albeit hackneyed and more often used
for comic effect) as well as a euphemism for sexual congress.
(Didn’t know that, did you?)

i admittedly didn’t :wink:
yet i dare assume that in this hunting song coitus is not the predominant topic *g*

Hoicka hoick has lost whatever
position of prominence in the pantheon of percussative
pronouncements it perchance possessed previously. I would
expect questioning looks in my direction were I to shout
“hoicka hoick” at a sporting event, for example. Maybe I will
try it.

good luck. be god with ye.

they are at a fault (wie ist das gemeint?)

Hard to say. It is not even clear who “they” are. Possible
explanations - they are guilty of doing something wrong, they
are failing, they are doing something very well (if this is an
earlier version of “to do something TO a fault”), they are
next to or in a ditch or depression in the earth of some kind.

ah! would make sense :smile:

You would have to research hunting language and geological
descriptions of the time or find some way to research earlier
meanings of “fault.” HOWEVER, if we assume the “they” of this
sentence are the “they” of the previous sentence, then I
would guess that “they” are animals and that they have gone to
ground in a hole. This would be germane information in a hunt
and common behaviors of foxes, badgers, hares and and enemy
infantrymen. Or maybe I am completely wrong.

i hope not so ;^)
but, as we already are at the question: what dictionary would be of help to my odd inquiries? meaning, where am i to search if i want to look up vocabulary in a diachronic description?

Boy, winde the horne (ich glaube, es ist [wind], nicht
[waind]?)

boy, wind (blow) the horn

yes, i do know the meaning of to wind a horn, i just wasn’t sure about the pronounciation. however, i am now convinced that [wind] will be more fitting than [waind]

Sing tiue tiue tiue
I assume that tiue is how the horn sounds to the author…a
fox-hunting horn sounds like this to me, I guess. At least
those I have heard in movies.

aha.
uhm.
could you go ahead and try transcribing the sound of these horns? or rather, give hints as to how „tiue“ might sound? [TAI-WUE] (or: *tie* as in tie a yellow ribbon, and *whe* as in whether or not…???)

Now in full crie, with yeeble yable gibble gabble hey
nonsense words - which seemed to be common in songs of the
period, at least …cf. “hey, nonney-nonney” and “tralala” in
other songs of the period.

yes, i thought so. i didn’t try to look these up, you know. just in case you believed… :wink:

The hounds doe knocke it lustily with open mouth and lusty
crie
the hounds are going about the business of belling (yes, “to
bell” is an english verb - from middle english “bellen”) and
barking with eagerness

were i to speak those words, would i have to pronounce the last syllable of „lustily“ that it rhymed with „cry“?

many thanks
your humblest servant
jonas

6

auch dir danke, eckhard.
was mir noch an fragen bleibt, steht in dem antwortartikel zu james forslund - vielleicht hast du ja noch eine idee…
grusz
jonas

7

How now,

merrily, my lad! :smile:
sorry, my English won’t be of sufficient perfection to answer
in quite as well a way as you did aforehand.

I doe note that another persone of wisdome hath provided much
of aide. Yet doe I adde this, my “two pence worth.” I
presume to offer my succore in a mingling of englysh and
german, assur’d as I am that thou readest englysh with
facilitye.

hoicka hoick, whoope whoope …sounds of shouting, I
would assume. Whoopee remains a shout of
celebration/enthusiasm (albeit hackneyed and more often used
for comic effect) as well as a euphemism for sexual congress.
(Didn’t know that, did you?)

i admittedly didn’t :wink:

Cf. the 1930’s (1940’s?) popular tune Making Whoopee.

yet i dare assume that in this hunting song coitus is not the
predominant topic *g*

You are probably right. On the other hand, the elizabethans have a reputation for being lusty. And just what made the Merry Wives of Windsor so damned happy?

Hoicka hoick has lost whatever
position of prominence in the pantheon of percussative
pronouncements it perchance possessed previously. I would
expect questioning looks in my direction were I to shout
“hoicka hoick” at a sporting event, for example. Maybe I will
try it.

good luck. be god with ye.

I have changed my mind. The players will probably think I am shouting „Take a hike.“ which of course means go away and they might offer an unkind retort.

they are at a fault (wie ist das gemeint?)

Hard to say. It is not even clear who “they” are. Possible
explanations - they are guilty of doing something wrong, they
are failing, they are doing something very well (if this is an
earlier version of “to do something TO a fault”), they are
next to or in a ditch or depression in the earth of some kind.

ah! would make sense :smile:

You would have to research hunting language and geological
descriptions of the time or find some way to research earlier
meanings of “fault.” HOWEVER, if we assume the “they” of this
sentence are the “they” of the previous sentence, then I
would guess that “they” are animals and that they have gone to
ground in a hole. This would be germane information in a hunt
and common behaviors of foxes, badgers, hares and and enemy
infantrymen. Or maybe I am completely wrong.

i hope not so ;^)
but, as we already are at the question: what dictionary would
be of help to my odd inquiries? meaning, where am i to search
if i want to look up vocabulary in a diachronic description?

Beats the hell out of me. I really don’t know anything about elizabethan english but there seems to be a lot about it in the internet. Maybe if you keep on clicking on the embedded urls in the texts and also try contacting the individuals whose e-mail addresses appear you can find someone more knowledgeable. You could also try querying the english departments at various universities. Due to the wonders of the wired world, you can do so rather quickly and easily, as you know.

Boy, winde the horne (ich glaube, es ist [wind], nicht
[waind]?)

boy, wind (blow) the horn

yes, i do know the meaning of to wind a horn, i just wasn’t
sure about the pronounciation. however, i am now convinced
that [wind] will be more fitting than [waind]

Once again, I am no expert, but it is quit possible that at the time it might have been pronounced (i will use english ‚civilian‘ orthography to avoid confusing myself. Sorry if it confuses you.) wine-d. It might even have been pronounced way-nd. I think there are discussions of vowel sound shifts in the internet.

Sing tiue tiue tiue
I assume that tiue is how the horn sounds to the author…a
fox-hunting horn sounds like this to me, I guess. At least
those I have heard in movies.

aha.
uhm.
could you go ahead and try transcribing the sound of these
horns? or rather, give hints as to how „tiue“ might sound?
[TAI-WUE] (or: *tie* as in tie a yellow ribbon, and *whe* as
in whether or not…???)

As a present-day native speaker of english, I would pronounce the written tiue as tea (as in the Queen’s favorite non-alcoholic drink) - oo (as in too). If done in a falsetto through pursed lips, it sounds like the hunting horns that I have heard in movies.

Now in full crie, with yeeble yable gibble gabble hey
nonsense words - which seemed to be common in songs of the
period, at least …cf. “hey, nonney-nonney” and “tralala” in
other songs of the period.

yes, i thought so. i didn’t try to look these up, you know.
just in case you believed… :wink:

The hounds doe knocke it lustily with open mouth and lusty
crie
the hounds are going about the business of belling (yes, “to
bell” is an english verb - from middle english “bellen”) and
barking with eagerness

were i to speak those words, would i have to pronounce the
last syllable of „lustily“ that it rhymed with „cry“?

Good question. That would make it rhyme, wouldn’t it? As you have probably perceived, english pronunciation changed quite a bit during and after the elizabethan period (some of it - I am convinced - because of the appearance on the scene of the House of Hannover. Beginning slight before 1700 or so and for 200 years, the King of England had a father who spoke German and a mother who was born in Germany. The German royalty spoke many English words in a German way - I believe historical accounts will bear me out- and the court went along with him („It’s good to be the king“ - Mel Brookes) and the upper nobility went along with them and the tradesmen selling to the court went along…etc.) Anyway, I digress. But my answer is, in short, that I do not know, but the assumption that the verse should rhyme makes sense. On the other hand, it does not sound wrong to me to pronounce it lusti-lee (as in teeth). This type of quasi, modified, sort-of, half-assed rhyme is common in English poetry. I realize that that is no help at all. Sorry. But as I said there are guides to Elizabethan pronounciation in the internet. In fact just now I remember seeing them. Unfortunately, they use a strange orthography to indicate the sounds that does not even seem to be the international phonetic alphabet. Maybe my computer does not support whatever symbols they used.

Wish I could be of more help, but anyone who chooses to study Elizabethan english deserves whatever happens to them. :smile:

Geeble gabley yours
Jim

1 „Gefällt mir“
8

Yikes. 2,500 hits…
bekommt man, wenn man bei www.google.com die Phrase „pronunciation of elizabethan english“ eingibt. (eingibt?)

That ought to hold you for awhile.

Jim

9

but, as we already are at the question: what dictionary would
be of help to my odd inquiries? meaning, where am i to search
if i want to look up vocabulary in a diachronic description?

Beats the hell out of me. I really don’t know anything about
elizabethan english but there seems to be a lot about it in
the internet.

yeah, i think so (i haven’t looked so far, because a dictionary comparable to the Deutsches Wörterbuch (first edited by Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm) is somewhat more reliable; and i hoped you knew a main english dictionary - never mind.
btw, google is my favourite search engine - i will have a look at the 2500 links (or whatever) it hits on this topic…)

Sing tiue tiue tiue
I assume that tiue is how the horn sounds to the author…a
fox-hunting horn sounds like this to me, I guess. At least
those I have heard in movies.

aha.
uhm.
could you go ahead and try transcribing the sound of these
horns? or rather, give hints as to how „tiue“ might sound?
[TAI-WUE] (or: *tie* as in tie a yellow ribbon, and *whe* as
in whether or not…???)

As a present-day native speaker of english, I would pronounce
the written tiue as tea (as in the Queen’s favorite
non-alcoholic drink) - oo (as in too). If done in a falsetto
through pursed lips, it sounds like the hunting horns that I
have heard in movies.

ah, thanks.

Wish I could be of more help, but anyone who chooses to study
Elizabethan english deserves whatever happens to them. :smile:

you already were of great help, thank you very much

*seinenhutluepfend*
jonas